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  #121  
Old 03-20-2009, 01:32 PM
Jeffrey Read Jeffrey Read is offline
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

khengteik,
My sentiments the same.

The only way to correct this, is to have an under cover operation wherein someone infiltrate SPCA management and expose whatever that is going on in the there from the inside out, provided IF something is found.

I have my suspicions at the moment and as you correctly put it, it definately has something to do with Tax Exemption and I wouldn't be surprised if SPCA is being used as tax evasion strategy which is illegal and those found guilty can be liable to prosecution.

If I am correct, that would be the saddest truth and everything else, whether done or not done, was only meant to disguise others from the real picture.

Jeffrey

off-topic
About the frequent floods that is happenning in KL. Here is what I have to say, no matter how many retention ponds KL is going to have or how many more "Smart Tunnels" KL is going to be build, FLOODS are still going happen.

Last edited by Jeffrey Read; 03-20-2009 at 02:08 PM.
  #122  
Old 03-20-2009, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

KhengTeik,

Just because others have differing opinions from you does not mean that they are narrow-minded, or that they never took your points into consideration. In fact, I see that some of those people who spoke in favour of SPCA agree to valid counter-arguments, but on the contrary, you are getting defensive and rejecting everything that others say outright.

As I've said, SPCA definitely has rooms for improvement, but such pointless attacking here is not doing any good to them, their volunteers or you. Please feel free to continue your debates and warfare with other willing participants on MSN


Coony,

Yes, you are right. I'm sure we've had enough of some people whose purpose seems to only be to cause arguments and chaos. I am already closely monitoring a list of hostile or rude people who are candidates for becoming the first banned members of our forum.
  #123  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:06 PM
Jeffrey Read Jeffrey Read is offline
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Andy Koh,

If only the person who created the thread, could have the decision to allow or disallow posts from other members that would truly help in making your Forum a better place. As it becomes self regulatory, otherwise to me its no different like in Parliament House.

So its going to be more like a moderator within a moderator. Of course, whether the system is designed in such a way to cater for this request, you would know best. Of course, you have the access to all threads at all times. LOL

Jeffrey Read

P/S: I kindly request, please change the word Petfinder Buddy to Animal Lover or delete it altogether. Thank you.

Last edited by Jeffrey Read; 03-20-2009 at 02:12 PM.
  #124  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Whoa! I can't believe you guys are still at it. I didn't log in in the morning, and 4 long pages have flown by. But, the worst is, there is mud-slinging and condescension now!

If you guys can't learn to debate civilly, and agree to disagree, then I second what Andy said, hop over to your MSN and argue yourselves to death.

Didn't you guys read what I wrote last night? Or do I have to shout it out??? Nah, here it is below, hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say here.....STOP IT NOW!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackie007 View Post
ruth, i'm not offended, not to worry. we are just sharing opinions and discussions, it's nothing personal, right? unless u want to make it personal.

i am pretty ambivalent about spca and am not blind to their faults. but it doesn't help to bash them up like this, because their funds will decline.

when that happens, what spca is going to do, and pretty good at, is to KILL EVEN MORE animals in there.

let's say, hypothetically, they kill 10 animals a day. now, when funds decline, they're going to up the ante and might even kill 100 animals a day. is the number far-fetched? we'll never know until funds decline. and it is for this reason, i keep saying it doesn't solve the problem by continuously bashing spca.

instead, if anyone feels so strongly about spca's apathy, then he/she should do something concrete to turn things around. i believe in if there's a will there's a way.

becos i really don't see what all this bashing will lead to other than spca becoming more unpopular and the animals in the shelter suffering as a result of this.

again, let me repeat, i am not promoting spca. my ONLY CONCERN is what would happen to the existing animals in spca's care if the public shuns them and their funds decline.

let's imagine for a second that spca ceases to exist:-

1) what will happen to the existing animals? how many can be fostered by the rescuers? they are already asking for help for those dogs that they rescued from the dbkl dog pound.

2) where will the irresponsible owners take their pets to when they no longer want them? i think it's safe to say they'll just throw them out onto the streets.


for me, i think it'll be a lot worse if spca fails to exist, much as i abhor their kill policy. in case you're not aware, i've always taken the stand that all animals have a right to live alongside us, even on the streets. i am vehemently against the notion that they should be killed for whatever reason, unless they are in agonising pain and there is no cure in sight.

as for the lady who's selling her bungalow in titiwangsa to support the strays, she is actually helping spca in a way. she fosters the animals from spca to stop them from being killed due to space constraints. and she wants to do even more. this is why she wanted to sell her bungalow, and she is happy and willing to do that. she is a great lady that we can all emulate.

and there are about 10 dogs that she passed on to one of my hubby's cousin to keep in her house. spca gave my hubby's cousin a letter to say that those dogs are spca's and she's fostering them on their behalf until homes could be found for them. this letter comes in useful during raids by MPPJ, which has happened before as the dogs are noisy and the neighbours have lodged complaints with the MPPJ.

every month, spca gave my hubby's cousin dog food to feed the dogs, and they built an "igloo" in her garden for the dogs to play with, with their funds because my hubby's cousin is like me, a housewife without income.
sorry, andy, for shouting. they're a bit hard of hearing.

Last edited by AndyKoh; 03-20-2009 at 02:20 PM. Reason: Very scary large red words
  #125  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Jeffrey,

I understand your idea. However, I think that would only be effective if the thread creator is able to execute an unbiased and objective judgment on other people and their posts. I feel that many people might have the tendency to just censor out opposing people and rebuttals like a dictator, so that they appear to win the debate hands-down

Anyway, I don't think there's such a function in our forum software. It only allows customization of permissions up to a particular sub-forum, but not for individual threads.

p/s: I have enabled the functionality in your account to set your own custom title - Animal Lover or any other titles you wish.
  #126  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Andy Koh

Quote:
Just because others have differing opinions from you does not mean that they are narrow-minded, or that they never took your points into consideration. In fact, I see that some of those people who spoke in favour of SPCA agree to valid counter-arguments, but on the contrary, you are getting defensive and rejecting everything that others say outright.

As I've said, SPCA definitely has rooms for improvement, but such pointless attacking here is not doing any good to them, their volunteers or you. Please feel free to continue your debates and warfare with other willing participants on MSN
With all due respect, since when was i defensive at all?? in all my posts... if YOU read them carefully... they all speak of almost the same thing... Which is regarding all the things that they could do but never do...

I haven't even began attacking and yet you already say that i am attacking...

I am rejecting what others say because no proof is given by them... everyone says SPCA has this awareness program and that awareness program, but as an animal lover like myself who knows how to use the internet and reads the papers, i repeat, i've NEVER EVER seen any advertisements about awareness programs... the only things i've seen all the time is this sale, that sale and this fundraiser and that fundraiser.... So how would the general public especially the non-animal lovers know if there is any awareness program?

Another thing. i've clearly stated my case why it is important to educate non-animal lovers/old people over and over again... and yet the only response i get from SPCA backers is they have awareness programs, school programs, etc .. nothing is said regarding programs for non-animal lovers..

And when it comes to the issue of money, from SPCA's website, HSBC sponsors around RM50k a year and there is this another comany that sponsors 5k monthly... these are the ones that are made known to the public... what about those individuals that donate? This is the fact that i have.. and i got this figure from the SPCA website. All counter-arguments does not have strong solid facts/evidence to back them up...

And as Furkid has pointed out, TNR is a very successful program overseas... yet there are some people here that asks him to redo the study.... my question again... why do we need to redo a study on TNR when it has been proven that it helps reduce the number of strays?

As you all can see... all my arguments are based on FACTS.... its a fact that they are not doing what they supposedly intended to do..... looks like SPCA is more NATO then i am...

'phom mai lu la, mai aw lu leaw... phom mai dee.... khun you nie dee... mai bien lai'

Last edited by khengteik; 03-20-2009 at 02:41 PM.
  #127  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackie007 View Post
Whoa! I can't believe you guys are still at it. I didn't log in in the morning, and 4 long pages have flown by. But, the worst is, there is mud-slinging and condescension now!

If you guys can't learn to debate civilly, and agree to disagree, then I second what Andy said, hop over to your MSN and argue yourselves to death.

Didn't you guys read what I wrote last night? Or do I have to shout it out??? Nah, here it is below, hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say here.....STOP IT NOW!!



sorry, andy, for shouting. they're a bit hard of hearing.
Thanks Blackies, u did the right job
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  #128  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

reading this is sad altho its a fact. That's why i hope oneday soon I'll be able to help all animals with my shelter& hospital!
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  #129  
Old 03-20-2009, 02:59 PM
Jeffrey Read Jeffrey Read is offline
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Andy Koh,

That is too bad, I guess it is system limitation.

The good thing about being self-regulatory not only does it make your job easier but it makes a forumer think twice about posting and to write in a proper way, so that his/her message is allowed to go through.

I wouldn't say winning hands-down but there are many ways to tackle any issue. The only question is what is the outcome that we want to achieve. Sorry to say this, but most of the threads do not seem to achieve as it gets lost a long the way.

Jeffrey

Example. I recently bought a land and there is encroachment. So how do I tackle the issue without creating ill feelings with my soon to be neighbour! Depends very much how I politely argue the facts of the case. Its not about winning hands down, although I am sure I can but its more like creating a better friendship from the encroachment while getting the encroacher to redo their mistake at their own cost! In the US, its call Battleplan!

P/S: Thanks for enabling me or something. Lack computer knowledge.
  #130  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Well, I was in tears after reading the opening post...

It's a sad fact that such events occur in all countries in the world, to either a greater or lesser extent. We should all be working pro-actively and constructively together to minimize the need for euthanasia of perfectly able and loving animals, working towards the day where such practices are no longer needed...

1) Trap-Neuter-Return Scheme

Great idea!!!! Why don't we set up a scheme here! Working in collaboration with SPCA and PAWS who I am sure would be very happy to back the scheme. We could acquire a small set of traps, recruit friendly local vets into the scheme, and make a start by doing what we can... and go on from there... the neutering cost of 60RM seems reasonable... we could see this as a worthy donation to the cause for each animal we TNR... and maybe the scheme would even attract sponsorship...

2) School Pet Adoption Program

Education is critical! Why not lobby your local school(s) to implement a pet adoption program for class rooms! Maybe some already do! It doesn't matter what type of pet a class or school adopts, a cat or dog from PAWS or the SPCA, or rabbit or a gerbil, the key is that the children will learn in a pro-active way to love and care for the pet, which hopefully will transfer over to their adult life into love and respect for all animals.

Just couple of suggestions where I think we can all make a real contribution towards eliminating euthanasia...

Last edited by Simon; 03-20-2009 at 10:31 PM.
  #131  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by khengteik View Post
I am rejecting what others say because no proof is given by them... everyone says SPCA has this awareness program and that awareness program, but as an animal lover like myself who knows how to use the internet and reads the papers, i repeat, i've NEVER EVER seen any advertisements about awareness programs... the only things i've seen all the time is this sale, that sale and this fundraiser and that fundraiser.... So how would the general public especially the non-animal lovers know if there is any awareness program?
Go to Facebook and search for SPCA Penang. Articles, sales, pets for adoptions etc are all there. If you can't find it or have never seen something, please don't say its not there.

Alternatively logon to thier website : http://www.spca-penang.net/

On another note, I've already came out with a proposal to SPCA to visit MNCs in Penang to give talks and awareness on proper pet care. Initial target audience from the first batch of 10 factories will be 15,000 people with 2nd and 3rd phase in the pipeline over a period of 10 months.

How many people will you be reaching out to this year?

Last edited by nivek; 03-20-2009 at 03:39 PM.
  #132  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Yea, many way you can help the SPCA. Only depand you like to do, or not.
I was volunteer for penang SPCA EDUCATION CHILDRENS CAMP, The massage is During the day camp, the children learn how to respect, to care and to love pets. The programs include talk about pet health and care, dog shows, animal trainer showing how to train your pets, games and interactive activities. Some of our own friendly four legged friends were there to provide hands-on experience to these children too. The children were having a fun time and we hope that the children will take back with them the knowledge, value and the responsibility of how to be an "animal carer" through this camp. We thank all those who organized and volunteered to make this event a success. This is after all a continuous education program. It creates awareness and instill in the young generation the responsibilities of being a pet owner.
here the Cert for show

I and my dogs volunteer for SPCA penang for education for public come for adopt doggy and get 50% discount from Penang PAA training club.

+ sametime introduce petfinder.my forum to public._


Quote:
Originally Posted by nivek View Post
Go to Facebook and search for SPCA Penang. Articles, sales, pets for adoptions etc are all there. If you can't find it or have never seen something, please don't say its not there.

Alternatively logon to thier website : http://www.spca-penang.net/
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  #133  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Khengteik, I doubt if we will have anything to shoot each other about since pleasantly, I have a forumer friend who understands the need to lighten the "slaves" (put your hands back down away from the gun, fellas, I borrow the expression from the book "Net Slaves" - I know this is a highly emotional term for the volunteers who are doing a good job on the ground and the "masters" at the top need to keep them that way and not think too brightly in case they start questioning the "masters" the way we are and stop the volunteer work to keep the numbers going).

The "masters" need to lighten the "slave" work by providing healthy abandoned and stray animals a chance to live amongst the community instead of culling (wrongly described as euthanising) them simply because they are not adoptable because they are less good looking or the fur not long enough and SPCA does not have the bottomless pocket or space to continue keeping them alive.

However, in order to successfully enable these animals to continue to live amongst the humans in the community, SPCA here urgently needs to approach all residental community committees to re-align their thinking and educate them to respect the animals' right to life among them and not to threaten to kill or harm them in any way which is cruel.

And in order to reduce the discomfort of having these animals in the neighbourhood, these dumped pets and strays need to be spayed/neutered to stop the reproduction and reduce the menace of them salvaging the garbage by setting up discreet feeding stations manned by volunteers termed Stray Colony Caregivers by the Hong Kong SPCA.

At the moment, instead of sending these animals to SPCA where chances of culling is very high due to their stated resource constraints, many members of the public are spaying/neutering and feeding these animals in their own neighbourhood but getting much hostility from the uneducated animal haters in the neighbourhood (read the latest post on this which came from Ashley, another rescuer, who is frantically looking for fosterers because her neighbours are threatening her cats. She is even willing to provide all material support for these cats in order to just give them a chance to life the way God gives all of us humans).

So, Andy, the SPCA urgently needs to reach out to these animal haters in the community the way modern forward thinking SPCAs are doing as an alternative to culling simply because the shelter has exhausted its resources and unable to house the poor animals. Going to schools is good, but the very urgent need is to get to the community's adults in order to effect the much needed difference NOW, this instance! The animal hating adults are counter-productive to SPCA's hard efforts at the schools, and the spayed/neutered strays are being harmed in the neighbourhood.

However, our local SPCA aims for ZERO strays (a flawed vision which needs to be changed because that means killing all unadoptable strays which is so very sad) ... which means NO STRAYS in the neighbourhood and no Managed Stray Colonies! So is this why our SPCA does not bother with adults education in the community and the concept of managed stray colonies like their counterparts? ... and keep focusing on schools and jumble sales? You tell me ...

... and that brings us back to square one ... cull, cull, cull because no space and $$ to keep them alive at the shelters!

If the animals (must be spayed/neutered) can be released comfortably (with hostility from animal haters converted successfully into animal emphatisers), then the current good bunch of enthusiastic and hardworking, self-motivated volunteers that are currently helping out at the SPCA can then be deployed as Stray Colony Caregivers like in Hong Kong and elsewhere. It is a win-win situation, and a big win for the poor healthy but unadoptable animals which are given a second chance in life.

This is easier for the cats, but the dogs are more challenging because we are a predominantly Muslim community and not many are as mature thinking and tolerant as June and her friends.

Good nite, Khengteik, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz with you ...
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Last edited by FurKids; 03-20-2009 at 04:09 PM. Reason: change "better" the discomfort to "reduce" the discomfort ... alamak, lain makna pulak!
  #134  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Dear Simon,

I quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Well, I was in tears after reading the opening post...

It's a sad fact that such events occur in all countries in the world, to either a greater or lesser extent. We should all be working pro-actively and constructively together to minimize the need for euthanasia of perfectly able and loving animals, working towards the day where such practices are no longer needed...

1) Trap-Neuter-Return Scheme

Great idea!!!! Why don't we set up a scheme here! Working in collaboration with SPCA and PAWS who I am sure would be very happy to back the scheme. We could acquire a small set of traps, recruit friendly local vets into the scheme, and make a start by doing what we can... and go on from there... the neutering cost of 60RM seems reasonable... we could see this as a worthy donation to the cause for each animal we TNR... and maybe the scheme would even attract sponsorship...

2) School Pet Adoption Program

Education is critical! Why not lobby your local school(s) to implement a pet adoption program for class rooms! Maybe some already do! It doesn't matter what type pet a class or school adopts a cat or dog from PAWS or the SPCA a rabbit or a gerbil, the key is that the children will learn in a pro-active way to love and care for the pet, which hopefully will transfer over to their adult life into love and respect for all animals.

Just couple of suggestions where I think we can all make a real contribution towards eliminating euthanasia...
As per stated in the forums, Furkid has brought up the TNR issue... but there are numerous parties that does not think the way we think.

As for issue #2, i do not deny that SPCA has been going to schools for their awareness campaign. (as per emailed to me by SPCA from my numerous straight to the point and blunt posts in pp.com). However, my argument here is again the older generation.... It is no use going to the younger generation when their parents are non animal lovers. That is why i emphasize on educating the adults more... There is no point of teaching the child to be kind to the animals if when they go back, their parents kick the cats that come into their home or saying that it is a stupid thing and a waste of money to feed the strays when they do it....

Dear nivek,

Again i stress out... and i quote from my previous post

Quote:
I am rejecting what others say because no proof is given by them... everyone says SPCA has this awareness program and that awareness program, but as an animal lover like myself who knows how to use the internet and reads the papers, i repeat, i've NEVER EVER seen any advertisements about awareness programs... the only things i've seen all the time is this sale, that sale and this fundraiser and that fundraiser.... So how would the general public especially the non-animal lovers know if there is any awareness program?
If you read carefully... I am talking about Awareness Programs... and i repeat, I never see any ads or information regarding awareness programs. all i see is this SALE, that SALE, ADOPTION, etc....

Thank you for being so kind of letting me know of SPCA Png's website. However, again the mentality is there.... first page.... everything is about sale~sale~sale, need money, etc... There is nothing on the first page regarding awareness programs... go to www.spca.com and see their content.. 80% of the content is on caring for animals.... that is on the first page...

This is why i say something is very wrong with my English... no one seems to understand me....

And again i stress out that i AM NOT AGAINST SPCA. Its just that i cannot comprehend what they are doing vs their objective

Last edited by khengteik; 03-20-2009 at 03:58 PM.
  #135  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by khengteik View Post
Dear nivek,

Again i stress out... and i quote from my previous post



If you read carefully... I am talking about Awareness Programs... and i repeat, I never see any ads or information regarding awareness programs. all i see is this SALE, that SALE, ADOPTION, etc....

Thank you for being so kind of letting me know of SPCA Png's website. However, again the mentality is there.... first page.... everything is about sale~sale~sale, need money, etc... There is nothing on the first page regarding awareness programs... go to www.spca.com and see their content.. 80% of the content is on caring for animals.... that is on the first page...

This is why i say something is very wrong with my English... no one seems to understand me....

And again i stress out that i AM NOT AGAINST SPCA. Its just that i cannot comprehend what they are doing vs their objective
Again go read the website. Kwong Wah papers have been supporting SPCA. On the other hand, do you know how much it is to publish in The Star for a day? Don't judge the action of one SPCA site and put a uniform stand on all the SPCA sites. They are not managed by the same people.

Here's the link on awareness in case you missed it : http://www.spca-penang.net/resources.htm

And my question stands, how many people are you targetting to make aware this year?

Last edited by nivek; 03-20-2009 at 04:07 PM.
  #136  
Old 03-20-2009, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurKids View Post
Khengteik, I doubt if we will have anything to shoot each other about since pleasantly, I have a forumer friend who understands the need to lighten the "slaves" (put your hands back down away from the gun, fellas, I borrow the expression from the book "Net Slaves" - I know this is a highly emotional term for the volunteers who are doing a good job on the ground and the "masters" at the top need to keep them that way and not think too brightly in case they start questioning the "masters" the way we are and stop the volunteer work to keep the numbers going).

The "masters" need to lighten the "slave" work by providing healthy abandoned and stray animals a chance to live amongst the community instead of culling (wrongly described as euthanising) them simply because they are not adoptable because they are less good looking or the fur not long enough and SPCA does not have the bottomless pocket or space to continue keeping them alive.
i don't care where you got the expression from, i think you need to stop referring to volunteers and rescuers like me as "slaves". what we do we do for animals, not for our "masters".

i don't like your tone. very condescending. you are clearly suffering from delusions of grandeur. you're very rude. its clear you think you are the only intelligent person in this forum.
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  #137  
Old 03-20-2009, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by nivek View Post
Have you approached your local SPCA with this proposal with a CBA to have them initiate this program?
u think the present spca is that receptive to any proposals. plse be honest to yourself. u know how things are in spca, if u care to admit it. if there is glory and publicity, then maybe proposals are well-received.
  #138  
Old 03-20-2009, 04:06 PM
dreay dreay is offline
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth


Wow!i din log in within an hour its ady on te 7th page~walao~
Bt wat din make me suprise is tat on every page te ang mo kid stil barking alot..
Furkids,mind i suggest u2get a powerful spec4urself...
Read te post title PROPERLY,blindy.
Te topic is abt te letter frm animal shelter manager....not Tmn Segar Vet Fan Club...r u at te wrong page?wake up...get a spec..
Or is cuz ur emglish is TOOOOOOOO powerful until u cnt un the topic headline?poor lil helpless guy...
Frm my view,i tink wat Andy said was rite on so does a few ppl ard here...
EXCEPT U,furball....opps...i mean furkid...

ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THN BARKING....dun bark bark oni...do sumting laa...
  #139  
Old 03-20-2009, 04:08 PM
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daphne1985 daphne1985 is offline
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynielime View Post
i don't care where you got the expression from, i think you need to stop referring to volunteers and rescuers like me as "slaves". what we do we do for animals, not for our "masters".

i don't like your tone. very condescending. you are clearly suffering from delusions of grandeur. you're very rude. its clear you think you are the only intelligent person in this forum.
Yaya..Kudos Lynette!! I 100% Agree
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  #140  
Old 03-20-2009, 04:08 PM
khengteik khengteik is offline
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Default Re: Letter from an Animal Shelter Manager - the sad truth

I quote:
Quote:
On the other hand, do you know how much it is to publish in The Star for a day?
For SPCA? FREE... Tax Redemption..... REMEMBER???????

nuff said... time to keep my big mouth shut...

Last edited by khengteik; 03-20-2009 at 04:10 PM. Reason: phom au non leaw
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