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  #1  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:18 PM
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Default Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

I'm addressing this directly to Andy Koh re the above.

I'm quite new to this forum and I've enjoyed posting here and exchanging ideas and opinions with other forummers. The only snag is I'm against allowing the sale of animals in this forum. Before anyone hits the roof over this remark, let me tell you why. I'm merely expressing my opinion. Actually, I'm against exploiting animals and reaping benefits from them.

A lady came to me to ask about some stuff for her new puppy (supposed to be delivered the day after she came to see me). The puppy is only 3 weeks old and the breeder will deliver to her house. I'm rather shocked as animal people will know that 3 weeks is too soon for the puppy to be separated from the mother. It needs the immunity it can get from the mother.

I talked her out of taking delivery of this puppy. I explained to her why. What I want to highlight, Andy, is that there are people using a forum to peddle their wares and have no regard for the animals at all. I believe that these people just want to make a sale and get money. But don't you think that a public forum shouldn't be used as a channel to fan the greed of such kind. Eventually, irresponsible breeding will contribute to stray population.

Don't we have enough of animal problems with cruelty, which have been highlighted recently, taking place so openly? I think that what this particular breeder is doing is also another form of cruelty - to forcefully separate a 3-week old puppy from the mother is equivalent to forcefully separating a child from his/her mother. And for $$$ - what other reason can the breeder give, I wonder?

I don't mean to be critical of you or this forum, but I sincerely hope, for animals' sake, that you will do something about this. I'm just expressing my 2 bits. No offence meant to you or true animal people.
  #2  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

t.ruth, I agree with you. This is a place trying so hard to rehome homeless pets & on the other hand some ppl are pushing off their pets like nobody business for money.

Personally I'm a breeder too but I will never agree to the sales of my breeding in this manner. Recently I came to know of another breeder who try to portray how responsible & ethical a breeder she is in the international cat fancy. Yet this very breeder sort for the help of a BYB to assist in selling off her breeding bcoz she got too many unsold kittens. My question is, why breed when you had great difficulty in rehoming your breeding. Breeding shud never be done for the sole reason for money, we shud stop breeding if we have difficulty in securing a good home for them.
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  #3  
Old 03-06-2009, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi Coony

are u jimmy of Maine Coon fame? if u are, then i've heard quite positive remarks about you as a breeder, esp. from suppliers. most of them seem to have a good word for u. they say that u are a very selective breeder and u don't simply sell ur animals, that u are very particular abt whom u sell ur animals to. how i wish there are more breeders like that.
  #4  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

pets for sale does increase traffic to the site, but petfinder may not need this kind of traffic. just because the dog is not in the sale section, certain people equate adoption with freebies, dont know where they get their dictionary from! or a "token", one guy even offered acsyen a packet of sugar like it could pay the medical bills!

people who buys will buy elsewhere anyway, and they may not be a good adopters anyway since rescue dogs tends to come with a baggage.

if andy decides to delete, breeders might pass their pets for sale as for adoption and might further pollute the adoption page (this is like handling prostitution).

the essence though, if the section is there, petfinder IS an enabler for breeding (ethical or not). andy should decide and i will never pass a judgment cause.. anyway andy been a saint to all these souls, reaching 1000 adoption count on the site.

kudos to you andy, may this thread has a good outcome nonetheless..
  #5  
Old 03-06-2009, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Thank you T.Ruth and Coony for bring this attention to everyone, for my view point, the PET FOR SALE section at main page, It created to public no properly support pet seller. The main point is let the reader know whom thinking have a new pet? have 2 choice, Reader thinking about adding a new puppy to family, why not consider adopting one from a local animal shelter or you city Pound? then Buy at pet shop/breeder.
Right now have more then 130 pet waiting for sell at " PET FOR SALE" section. It going adding more. We created the petfinder.my platform is main point let strong community of pet rescuers, fosterers and adopters to assist homeless dogs and cats in seeking a proper home.

For the question, Do we need have this "PET FOR SALE" section?
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  #6  
Old 03-06-2009, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi Ruth,
at the risk of being called a kaypoh, i know jimmy personally and yes, jimmy is of felis wonder cattery. and what u heard of his reputation is entirely accurate.

he is a very selective breeder, and he refuses to sell his cats via any forums because he will only sell his cats to you if he knows you. if he doesn't know you, or feel comfortable about you, you can forget it, he's not going to sell you his cats.

i also personally know that he will not breed a cat which has a less than desirable qualities. he only picks the best from his cattery and breed those.

not only that, the cats and kittens he rescued and foster temporarily in his shop are not given to any tom, dick and harry. he only let them be adopted when he's sure the adopter will take good care of them.

and i do agree that pets should not be sold in a public forum here. and posts like those "I'm looking for a gf for my cat" should be banned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t.ruth View Post
Hi Coony

are u jimmy of Maine Coon fame? if u are, then i've heard quite positive remarks about you as a breeder, esp. from suppliers. most of them seem to have a good word for u. they say that u are a very selective breeder and u don't simply sell ur animals, that u are very particular abt whom u sell ur animals to. how i wish there are more breeders like that.
  #7  
Old 03-07-2009, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi t.ruth,

Thank you for your concern on this issue, you have certainly raised a good question which we actually addressed with other members in detail in an old thread covered with dust over half a year ago. Anyway, I will address your question here again for the benefit of newer members.

Why Pets For Sale?
First of all, PetFinder strives to be the de facto community for animal lovers - and that includes rescuers, fosterers, adopters, breeders and buyers. Our mission is to properly educate the public on responsible pet management and increase their knowledge on their pets' welfare. Now, to achieve that, we need to bring in as diversified a community as possible, not just people who are interested in adopting pets which is a subset of the community.

With the Pets for Sale section, we will attract the interest of people looking to buy pets. Getting them here is half the battle won. Why? Because by coming here, there is a chance for them to be influenced by us to adopt these homeless animals, and as they also see our ongoing discussions on the benefits of doing so, they might actually change their minds. If you have checked out the profiles of pets for sale, you'd also have noticed that it also suggests similar pets that are available for adoption, so the person can actually see homeless pets with a huge difference in price, but equally cute and adorable.

Also, another mission of ours is the reduction of strays through neutering and spaying. This applies to all pets, purchased or adopted, so we must be able to attract all crowds of animal lovers and properly educate them. Even if someone ultimately decides to purchase a pet, he would likely have been exposed to our discussions on neutering his pet, and that would already make a difference to the overpopulation of strays.


What Happens If We Did Not Have The Section?
Let's face it, even if we did not have such a section, people who want to buy pets will still buy them from pet shops. Simply because pet shops are so easily accessible compared to animal shelters, and they are much more well-presented to attract customers.

Instead of letting these people purchase from pet shops which bypasses our channel of communication, we can now attract them over and have a chance to educate them. We do not have unlimited resources to reach out to these people at every corner of the street, so the next best thing is to make them come and reach in to us.

Chelly also made a good point earlier - if we did not have such a section, it is still not going to stop breeders from getting their pets published at our site. They would just end up classifying their pets as for adoption and fake the price, then when adopters call them up they will reveal their actual intentions. This would just end up diluting our genuine adoption listings, reducing adoption effectiveness and irritating the adopters. Now that we give them a proper outlet to sell pets, they are more likely to abide by the rules.


What About The Breeders?
Some people tend to stereotype breeders and pet sellers as bad, unethical, cruel etc... but that is not necessary the case, as we can see from the excellent example of Jimmy (Coony). What we need is to have responsible breeders like him to be around, and to help lead the way for others.

There might eventually be ignorant breeders that slowly see our points and learn from them. Also, customers that are now more educated would demand a better practice from the breeders or ask more educated questions, which would lead to the breeders adopting higher standards.

For the stubborn and unethical ones, they stand to be exposed here by our members. That is the reason we have a public forum, hall of shame and comments sections for people to leave feedback. If someone is found to be ill-treating animals, we will unreservedly expose them to the public. With a feedback channel in place, it makes this process more organized and transparent, instead of letting these people lurk in the shadows and escape our radar.


Hope this sufficiently addresses your concerns. Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions.
  #8  
Old 03-07-2009, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Heya guys,

This is an important question raised. I think it has been raised before as well as Andy indicated.

First of all, PetFinder.my is NOT just a place for adoption.

I repeat: PetFinder.my is NOT just for adoption...

PetFinder is a Pet Portal and Community of Animal lovers...

Now, now, I know some of you good hearted souls have adopted PetFinder as your de factor adoption agency.. hehe.. but well, let's face it, although that's a big part of PetFinder, it's not the ONLY thing we can do...

What Andy and I are doing is strive to add more and more services to this site, and as such, you can see we have recently added the microcip database and now working frantically with local clinics and doctors to include their database as well. In doing so, we hope that one day, any lost animals can be quickly looked up and returned to it's owner.

Second, Andy is NOT the devil and enabler of backdoor breeders!!

I repeat: Andy is NOT the devil, *although i swear he may have some dark jedi powers lurking within him*

Third: ok... can't think of a third..

But let's go back to the original question raised. Should we have a Pets for Sale section? Should the Star newspaper remove thier Pets for Sale section in their classifieds? Should we ban all doctors from our site because some may be irresponsible? Should we ban ... the list goes on.. you get my point..

Everyday, Andy and I get PMs from people who wants to ban this person or that person or this thing or that thing..... You have no idea...

Now, after all that have been said, a Pet for Sale has it's good points;

It brings in a LOT more people than just an Pet for Adoption. I mean, a LOT... and everyone that comes into PetFinder will not go away without learning some really, really cool things about raising pets from someone really cool here on the forum.. Maybe some may even decide to adopt a couple of pets instead of buying.. maybe some may buy 1 get 1 adopted.. who knows.. the point is, getting more people into the community is better than blocking and only allowing a subset of people.

I totally disagree with the mentally that we need to censor this or censor that... I think we have been living in a censorship society so long that if we don't like something, we want to 'bannnnnn' the hell out of the entire thing.. kinda like throwing the baby out with the dirty water..

And a few other points.. oh.. well, they have all been discussed by Andy.. like, if we don't have a pet for sale, don't you think they'll just go elsewhere which is more 'iffy'?

Ok, last but not least.. should we legalize comprehensive sex education? *something to mule about*
  #9  
Old 03-07-2009, 12:44 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi t.ruth,

Yup! that's me, with Charlene here to confirm too. You & many other rescuers are doing a very noble work here, me I'm only a breeder who will do my very best to assure not of my cat will contribute to the stray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t.ruth View Post
Hi Coony

are u jimmy of Maine Coon fame? if u are, then i've heard quite positive remarks about you as a breeder, esp. from suppliers. most of them seem to have a good word for u. they say that u are a very selective breeder and u don't simply sell ur animals, that u are very particular abt whom u sell ur animals to. how i wish there are more breeders like that.
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  #10  
Old 03-07-2009, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi Andy & Ezer,

Both of you had your points here.

I wud like to add some suggestion here but off coz not necessary be entertain.

1) I think petfinder shud at least charge a min fee for any breeder or seller for advertise the sales of their cat or dog.

2) All breeders to be register with petfinder before allowing to advertise so that petfinder will be able to provide complete detail of breeder when require.

3) There shud be a breeder review section for buyer or forum members on the breeder here or detail from breeder about their breeding. Here the breeder will state what they include in the sales of their cat & dog together with what health warranty & what period of guarantee they offer for the purchase of their breeding. I believe when things are more transparent irresponsible & unethical breeders will think twice about conning any naive buyer & buyer having a better idea of the breeder before dealing. Hopefully in this way there will be lesser regretful buyer about dishonest breeder. I know you had a hall of shame section but this is about breeders or sellers after their unethical or dishonest act.

Just my 2 sen opinion.
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  #11  
Old 03-07-2009, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

I think this is good suggestion. may i add that the money raised from the advertisement fees can then be donated to SPCA and PAWS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coony View Post
Hi Andy & Ezer,

Both of you had your points here.

I wud like to add some suggestion here but off coz not necessary be entertain.

1) I think petfinder shud at least charge a min fee for any breeder or seller for advertise the sales of their cat or dog.

2) All breeders to be register with petfinder before allowing to advertise so that petfinder will be able to provide complete detail of breeder when require.

3) There shud be a breeder review section for buyer or forum members on the breeder here or detail from breeder about their breeding. Here the breeder will state what they include in the sales of their cat & dog together with what health warranty & what period of guarantee they offer for the purchase of their breeding. I believe when things are more transparent irresponsible & unethical breeders will think twice about conning any naive buyer & buyer having a better idea of the breeder before dealing. Hopefully in this way there will be lesser regretful buyer about dishonest breeder. I know you had a hall of shame section but this is about breeders or sellers after their unethical or dishonest act.

Just my 2 sen opinion.
  #12  
Old 03-08-2009, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

The bosses have spoken and I respect their views. so be it.

I agree with Coony's suggestion that breeders be charged a fee for advertising but I don't agree with blackie007 that it be donated to PAWS or SPCA, esp. SPCA. Why, later, ok? Please don't start an argument (I'm aware of the sensitivity of that small comment) on that yet. I'll explain my view later.

Coony, you have a very high calling - to do your bit to help other breeders to be more ethical and not contribute indirectly to strays. Bless you!
  #13  
Old 03-08-2009, 11:39 PM
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Default what a bunch of hipocrites

message that i wanna post is below

Last edited by pandorabox78; 03-08-2009 at 11:53 PM. Reason: double entry
  #14  
Old 03-09-2009, 04:14 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Cooney,

You bring up some very excellent suggestions. Andy and I will look into charging a minimal fee maybe in the near future... And see if we can work out some pet seller reviews...
  #15  
Old 03-09-2009, 11:26 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

GOOD POINT U HAVE THERE EZER!!!!!!!!!
Mr pandora or dr jonathon whatsoever ur name is,
if u come in peace or want to join our family for open discusion we welcome u but if u want to look for something to argue or create an argument please look for other places that suit u.

Guys, even if petfinder don have the pet for sale section, the breeders or sellers will oso find another way to sell their pet too.
Did u guys notice, some people post their puppies in the adoption list but in the remark it's stated for sale for maybe rm1k or more.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

I understand the wish to promote pet adoption and rescue over pet sales. That's where my heart is, too.

On the other hand, I think Andy and Ezer's point about bringing prospective pet-buyers to the site is valid. As soon as people arrive at PetFinder.my, they'll see forum entries about homeless animals, about inherited health disorders of pedigreed dogs, etc. If these things encourage the person to adopt a pet rather than buy, it's a victory! It's a sure bet they won't see anything to discourage them from buying if they go into a pet shop. There won't be a sign near the cash register asking, "Have you considered adopting a similar pet from a shelter?"
  #17  
Old 03-09-2009, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi Vivi,

Can you please let me know if you come across a pet adoption listing that is actually trying to sell an animal? That would be an abuse of the adoption status, and I will take immediate action on such listings.

Your observation correctly proved a point on why we need a Pets for Sale section - for without that, there would be a much greater influx of "disguised" listings to dilute genuine adoption profiles.
  #18  
Old 03-09-2009, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

Hi Everybody,

I didn't mean to open Pandora's box (sorry, Pandorabox78, for the unintended pun) to let the evils of the world fly and this war of words. My business partner has always reminded me that everyone will think that he/she is right and nothing anyone says will change one's mindset ungrudgingly, unless it's divine revelation and maybe not even then. So, no amount of argument and mud slinging in a forum will change anybody's way of thinking, of that I'm sure. At the end, we will still cling stubbornly to our views.

For instance, I'm against breeding and selling animals and I still am, even after reading all the posts. Maybe, it's my circumstances and experiences in life that made me like that. Everyone has different life experiences. To me, the arguments and reasons put forth, I can accept, but I still disagree. One thing I have learnt is if everyone keeps saying their piece just to get it off their chest, it will only result in more red faces, tension, etc., etc. and nothing gets solved.

What I'd like to do is to highlight an issue and let people be aware but not to force people to accept what I've said. At the very least, I would have planted a seed in people's mind and the truth will prevail over time. A little argument would make it exciting.

To Dr Jonathan of Segar Vets and all vets, I hope that you will see that what have been brought up in a public forum, pertaining to complaints about yourself or your clinic, in the right light, instead of 'screaming' legal action, suspending people's ids, deleting undesirable remarks, etc., etc. First, if it's myself, I would do some self examination. If I know I'm right, then only will I launch my defence. I'm a person who wants to see justice served (high hopes) and I react very strongly to exploitation of animals and children (that is why I can rescue animals without loving them).

In ending, I wish to commend Andy and Ezer for considering some positive actions. Good for you! And to Dr Jonathan and others, should I say that I'm glad we share some same views and you've done some good by giving us (me, at least) some food for thought.

back to rescue, more rescue, more and more rescue. Now - 200, Target - infinity.

Last edited by t.ruth; 03-09-2009 at 04:41 PM.
  #19  
Old 03-10-2009, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

T.ruth,

Haha, opening Pandora's Box... that's a good one!

It is absolutely fine for you to disagree. In fact, having differing opinions is a pre-requisite for improvement and innovation - just imagine how boring it is if everybody thinks and acts exactly the same, or blindly follows what others dictate.

As such, we will always encourage people to voice out their concerns and suggestions, in a constructive and concise manner. Debates would ensue, and it is not about who wins, but rather the opportunity for each party (and the observers) to expose themselves to both sides of the arguments and decide for themselves based on their own critical analysis. In many scenarios, there might also not be absolute rights or wrongs, but more about how well it is planned, executed and the acceptance and prevailing values of the community involved.

Keep up your excellent work in rescuing animals!


To Dr. Jonathan,

Even though your opinions differ from that of Ezer and mine, I am sure you play an equally crucial role by helping the needy animals at your clinic which definitely deserves our respect.

Our approaches might be different, but we as genuine animal lovers would share similar missions and visions. I wish you all the best in your veterinary efforts.
  #20  
Old 03-20-2009, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: Sale of Animals on a Public Forum

I think I may go a bit off topic here but..

I honestly don't mind where I (not entirely mine, but our cats are one big family) get my babies. Be it petshops or from shelters.

We - my brothers and I - actually have bought 1 (Belle) kitten from a petshop, 2 mix-persian (Elvee & Teddy) from mudah.com, 2 mix-bengal (Bonnie & Clyde) from whom I suppose is a backyard breeder and last but not least, our 6 DSH cats we've picked up from the streets and adopted.

Most of the cats bought were from 'bad' places.

#1 The petshop I bought Belle from kept her in a very small cage and every other kittens that they sold. Even the large adult Persians were kept in the small RM50 cage. :/

#2 My brother bough Bonnie first. He didn't know she had a flu and fungus on her skin only until 2 days later. We called the breeder to complain and she said that Clyde was suffering from the same thing as well. My brother asked whether there would be any compensation if anything were to happen to Bonnie. The breeder said yes. We took the very best care of her about 1 week and a half. Then she got all better. My brother insisted on buying Clyde eventhough he knew Clyde was sick before. After we took Clyde home, he was delirious. He'd hiss and spat at anybody even Bonnie, but he never had the guts to bite anyone. (It could be that the seller neglected him or Clyde is really like that) Well, I don't know what happened but a couple of days later, I saw Clyde cuddling with my brother purring and he still does that until today. He also gets along with Bonnie.

I personally think that not only does the animals from shelters need rescuing, so does the animals sold in petshops - not that I support what they're doing but I know that we can give them a better life here with us.

Note: We all still live with our parents and our house and it's backyard is pretty big. So don't worry about overcrowding. xD
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