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  #1  
Old 06-26-2009, 02:29 PM
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Default Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Ultra-faced Persians Life is Torture
http://www.pictures-of-cats.org/ultr...s-torture.html
by Maria
(Cracow)

Ultra Persian at a cat show - added to this article by PoC Admin - no connection with the author of the article

I have inherited my grandmother's ultra-faced Persian... Her name's Nina, she's an incredibly sweet cat and unfortunately also quite ill:(
She's PKD-negative, but the ultra face prevents her from normal life - she cannot breathe normally, she's tearing all the time, always on antibiotics because she's been having upper respiratory tract infections constantly:(

She cannot play with my cat, because he loves chasing and stuff and she's just unable to do any bigger effort, she's breathless when she tries:(((

Why are people doing this to their pets? I know that some people like the ultra look, but it's not worth it!

It's not normal to assume that a cat can tear constantly and be unable to play and still be called healthy - and that's what breeders do! "A robust healthy breed"... Total hypocrisy.

I thought, maybe Nina is one of few, but no - I spoke to a "reputed breeder" who assured me that tearing and breathing problems are in reality part of the standard, whatever CFA might say. You can't avoid it, making your cat flat-faced...I was told I should be happy she can eat on her own, as some of their champions can't pick up food with their nonexistent muzzles:(

This is all so sick... Nina may be cute, but comparing her to my European shorthair, she doesn't even look like a cat:( She suffering every day because of people's belief they can play God - or rather dr Frankenstein:(

Cats have always been wonderful human companions, which, unlike dogs, have always had the charming independency and sense of freedom - it's not the cat who belongs to human, it's the human who belongs to the cat;)

It's in feline nature - both sweetness and predation, affection and independence, softness and incredible grace and strength. Modern breeding is robbing cats of their true nature.

I love both my Persian Nina and European Anakin - both cuddle up to me and purr happily when I touch them, both welcome me home.

But Anakin has the vibe and strength that makes me feel - it's my carnivore, he chose me, he doesn't have to stay with me because he'd be fine in the wild, but he prefers to stay with me and he's happy in our home, hunting just flies. Nina has never had any choice - she'd die out there. It's really sad...:(

Maria

========================

I came across this article while browsing the net..What attracts me is that most of the things she said is erm..mostly true.. I am not trying to point the fingers to anybody as I do have one flat faced and..yeah, I can say... The reputation of the pure breed is good..but I do feel that my cat is struggling to live... It was then , when I do not have any of the flat face, I do have this perception and kept a dream to have on flat faced. and when I do, yes..I do love him but at the same time...I realized I am treating him like a sick cat... Most of the time, when he wanted to meow to me back, what I can see was just his mouth opening with just a very low meow and sometimes no sound at all..just the actions... More,I really thought that he manja lebih, as I have to feed him with my hands every other day..but now I really do understand, he is unable to get the kibbles up by himself... His eyes are teary every other time..and he has to endure my 3 timesx15 minutesx1 day cleaning of the eyes and also I found out that he is having difficulty to breathe becoz of the tears and nose water.. Nevertheless, he is a very sweet, affectionate ad also attached to me..When I say sit, he sits..when i call him, he comes..whenever i do anything, he will just lie down and wait for me, occasionally looking at me...

When I brought him to the vet, the vet looked at him with pity..the least she can do was to teach me how to control the tears, cleaning and bla bla bla... And prescribe me with proper medication..She never mentioned of anything subsiding or healed.. She told me about conjunctivities..the tears glands, the nostrils.. Where she concluded that this breed is more to breeding defect although CFA says the adverse..Opinion?

Hence,when I read around the forum, I did get a little confuse..so my questions are..

Is this pure breed is the outcome of the breeding defect?
Is this one of the other obscure sign of the cruelty of us, the human to the animals?
Is it true that air conditioner can help in helping to control the teary eyes?..
Is it true that by the 8th months the tears will subside?
or is there any other things that I can do to ease his natural condition?

And dear forumers, this thread will be more of a what-are-our-feelings-about-this-breed and the ways to makes things better for them... Please do not pointing fingers to anyone or anybody... or make this thread as a religious debate either..I am just a human who is trying to make the cats happy regardless of their pedigree...

Cheers..
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Old 06-27-2009, 07:35 AM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Dear Nurkasih,
Its ok to share how you feel..and its ok to feel the way you do about your persian pet. My adam is an 'extreme faced' persian too. But before I proceed, I wish to say how happy I am with my adam now. And I am sure, he is very happy to be part of my family too.

But I did....have a little problem with adam the first 3 months he arrived. I went through an ordeal when he had 'runny poo' problem, for 3 consecutive months. That was truly a trying period for me. He pooed 6-7 times a day, and I had to clean his 'immediate area' everytime after he pooed. A lot of time and money spent for him, to make him well again. But thats actually how we started bonding. Me and adam really feel how close we are to each other then and we are even more attached now. I miss adam everytime I have to be away from home now. I really do.

So far, adam does not have any problem eating his meals, be it kibbles or wet food. Yes, he takes longer to finish his portion compared to my 'doll faced' yaya, but I never had to hand feed him.

Teary eyes and runny nose ? Yes, adam does has this problem sometimes , but very mild. He is also very independant. I dont have to clean his eyes and nose. He does that himself and he looks really 'stunning' after grooming. My daughter even calls him 'metrosexual cat' hahahaha


Quote:
Hence,when I read around the forum, I did get a little confuse..so my questions are..
may I know why and what makes you confuse after reading the forum ? Which part is confusing you ?


Quote:
Is this pure breed is the outcome of the breeding defect?
this should answer this question

PERSIAN - Origin of breed

The first documented ancestors of the Persian were imported from Persia into Italy in 1620 by Pietro della Valle, and from Turkey into France by Nicholas-Claude Fabri de Peiresc at around the same time[1]. From France they soon reached Britain. The longhaired cats from Persia were interbred with Turkish Angoras[2]. Their appearance then differed greatly from today's standard[3]. Hundreds of years of selective breeding made Persians cobbier cats with drastically shorter muzzle. It's not clear when longhair cats (in general) first appeared, as there are no African Wildcats (believed to be ancestors of domesticated cats) with that kind of fur. There have been claims that the gene responsible for long hair was introduced through hybridization with Pallas cat. Recent research however refutes this theory[4].


read more here ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian...rigin_of_breed


Quote:
Is this one of the other obscure sign of the cruelty of us, the human to the animals?
from my personal experience, the answer is no. My persian is perfectly a happy pet

Quote:
Is it true that air conditioner can help in helping to control the teary eyes?..
I am not sure about this, but aircon does help to mantain a nice full fluffy furrs, of a persian. I mean they do have a fuller body furrs compared to persians who dont get much aircond. My adam doesnt get aircond 24/7. Maybe 10 hours a day only. Cant afford the TNB bills . Only 'Showcats' must get aircon round the clock , they must look their best all year round so they are ready to strutt and woo the crowd and most importantly win the judges' hearts at the cat shows.

Quote:
Is it true that by the 8th months the tears will subside?
I do believe any cats will get stronger when they get older. The antibody gets better as they grow.

Quote:
or is there any other things that I can do to ease his natural condition?
I believe very much in TLC ...give him 100% of tender love and care. Everything should be just fine.

Dear girl,
for your persian's sake, pls hear me out.
You have chosen and decided and now aquired a persian cat. You should be enjoying your life with him. Don't waste your time having all these negative thoughts about persian, their origin and what not. Whatever you have read in the internet should not make you sad and miserable about your persian. Yes, you can feel sorry for him , but dont feel bad about him. Remember your pet feels what you feel. You are making him miserable too. And its not helping both of you.

Cheer up !!! and enjoy life with your pets. They are all beautiful...
And they need a happy mommy too...

Last edited by adamyala; 06-27-2009 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

I personally think that these ultra modified breeds are not healthy, especially when breeders overbreed and overemphasize certain features such as squashed face/big eyes. Its the same for both dogs and cats, humans like the BIG EYED look.. and in the end the dog or the cat gets too huge eyes that will be prone to being displaced in the mildest trauma. Then the flat face trait like nurkasih mentioned results in a lot of breathing problems. You feel sorry for the animal

Eg: The perennial favourite ShihTzu dog. Some of them have been overbred to a really flat face, and big eyes, its terrible how they deteriorate as they grow older. Eyes will be too dry, and they snore at a young age. A lot of them have eye problem, teary eyes. In shih tzu threads you see a lot of people asking how to clean tear stains. Eyes are also prone to injury as they bulge out and get easily scratched. And the nose is so squashed, the dog finds it hard to breathe properly. Eating is also an issue, have to almost terbalik his head to eat ... how sad is that? Same goes for Pugs, Bulldogs (Horrible underbite, and bent legs = joint problems).

A little bit of flat face is fine, but breeders will overbreed to emphasize 'desirable' traits. Are they desirable? I don't think so.
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Old 06-27-2009, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sashy View Post

A little bit of flat face is fine, but breeders will overbreed to emphasize 'desirable' traits. Are they desirable? I don't think so.
Sashy: They are desirable...As because they are rare ( we won't see flat face on the street) and meeting the CFA and understood as the nearest to pure of their respective breed. I think I read somewhere that they do breed flat face dogs but it was stopped because the dogs lovers claim those breed have lots of problems breathing etc etc..

Adamyala : I got confused because they just claimed these runny nose/eyes are common ( CFA etc etc), but do not highlight that this actually can be considered as bad health condition..Breeders are trying to breed and breed to get more of this flat face ( sometimes crossing with their own siblings by irresponsible breeders which add up to the bad health condition )... In conclusion, we are making things more difficult for them ( the cats). Yes, I am happy with him actually, very obedient and loyal... I am trying to adjust to him anyway...thanks for sharing adamyala...
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:46 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

ultra flat persian ni = peke faced persian ke?
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarul View Post
ultra flat persian ni = peke faced persian ke?
termasuk sekali lah..tapi i punyer bukn peke... just flat face..(^^) Peke yang nampak 2 lubang idong ekk...
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sashy View Post
I personally think that these ultra modified breeds are not healthy, especially when breeders overbreed and overemphasize certain features such as squashed face/big eyes. Its the same for both dogs and cats, humans like the BIG EYED look.. and in the end the dog or the cat gets too huge eyes that will be prone to being displaced in the mildest trauma. Then the flat face trait like nurkasih mentioned results in a lot of breathing problems. You feel sorry for the animal

Eg: The perennial favourite ShihTzu dog. Some of them have been overbred to a really flat face, and big eyes, its terrible how they deteriorate as they grow older. Eyes will be too dry, and they snore at a young age. A lot of them have eye problem, teary eyes. In shih tzu threads you see a lot of people asking how to clean tear stains. Eyes are also prone to injury as they bulge out and get easily scratched. And the nose is so squashed, the dog finds it hard to breathe properly. Eating is also an issue, have to almost terbalik his head to eat ... how sad is that? Same goes for Pugs, Bulldogs (Horrible underbite, and bent legs = joint problems).

A little bit of flat face is fine, but breeders will overbreed to emphasize 'desirable' traits. Are they desirable? I don't think so.
I extremely agree with you. (this is just amazing, I hardly agree with anyone).
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Old 01-03-2010, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Aku pun sokong 100%. Flat face terjadi disebabkan mutation dan human menjadikan mutation ini sebagai standard untuk mendapat rupa yang unik pada kucing. Samalah cam menurunkan kecacatan pada keturunan.

Dari yang aku tengok rata-rata flat face nih problem tapi pada yang beruntung dapat yang sehat, alhamdullillah. Kesihatan sebenarnya memang tak nampak tapi kalau dah mata berair dan tahi mata berkerak atau nampak tears stain kat muka dia dah cukup bagi menyakinkan aku breed nih problematic.

Pada yang ada flat face dan menghadapi keadaan begini, jangan pulak anggap sebagai masalah tapi terima seadanya untuk create bonding yang lebih baik pada flat face anda.
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Old 06-29-2010, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

I just discovered this amazing article at http://www.fabcats.org/news/breeding/index.php which greatly saddens my heart because I believe the natural design of the cat's body is such an amazing work of God:

Persians: time to put things right?

In FAB's Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery in November there is a superb paper written by Claudia Schlueter and her colleagues from the veterinary universities of Leipzig and Vienna. The researchers have not discovered a new disease or a new treatment. However, what they have done is given us the scientific evidence behind something which most people wouldn't think too much about and a problem which is accepted by many as just a 'characteristic' of a certain pedigree breed, especially the more extreme forms of it.

Cat encyclopedias are full of advice on what breed to choose and what to look for. When it come to Persians, potential owners are warned about the long and dense coat and how much work it needs (primarily because the coat is too dense for any cat to get to grips with) and how (because the face has been flattened severely) the eyes need to be wiped regularly because the tears overflow and stain the fur. This is standard advice and nobody has questioned it.

We all know that if a cat gets something on its coat, only a millisecond or two passes before it is groomed off and the hair placed so that it lies properly – that is one of the joys of a creature with so many touch receptors on its skin that it knows where every hair should lie and when one is out of position. It is driven to keep itself in immaculate condition – so driven that it will even groom off something poisonous. So imagine being a cat that has to cope, not only with an impossible coat, but with a continuous stream of tears down the face – it must be so frustrating that you give up or go mad! So why do the eyes overflow and why do we accept this as something normal for any cat?

The authors of this paper have used some very modern techniques and produced amazing images. Because of the changes we have made to the skull of the Persian and Exotic breeds to produce the very flat face, the anatomy of the skull is distorted very considerably. In these very flat faced cats the distortion of the skull means that the tear duct has to under take a hugely tortuous route. The tears do not drain away as they should and spill over the face.

Have a look at the pictures – they tell the whole story. But the question must really be – how have we let this happen? How can breeders who call themselves cat lovers produce something so deformed? We see it in our dogs but we are also doing this to cats. The editorial in the JFMS is written by Richard Malik, a very well known feline vet from Australia with a special interest in feline inherited problems – some of his editorial is quoted below:

‘The basic design of the domestic cat is fundamentally sound. Why mess with it? As da Vinci said – 'the smallest cat is a masterpiece'. It's a design that evolved through functionality. Cats needed to hunt, kill prey, in turn avoid being killed by predators, reproduce and lead a vigorous athletic life. The result is a fit, elegant, lithe animal that should, if fed and housed properly, have few health issues and live a long life. In contrast, severely branchycephalic cats are a bastardisation of all things that make cats special. They have a nasolacrimal system that doesn't work properly, so tears stream down the front of their face causing staining and secondary dermatitis. It doesn't help that they often have excessive folds of skin that rub against the cornea. Their orbit is shallow, leading to a tendency to exposure keratitis and growth of corneal sequestra. The tear film just can't stretch that far! Their teeth erupt at such bizarre angles that they cannot masticate properly; the resulting propensity for food to accumulate between the teeth leads to accelerated plaque formation and periodontal disease. Stenotic nares and a soft palate too long for the length of the head cause upper airway obstruction, stridulous breathing and possible obstructive sleep apnoea. Their brain is crammed into the wrong-sized cranial vault, so conceivably we may soon be seeing syringomyelia, just like in Cavalier King Charles spaniels. They have a longer coat but are not as efficient at grooming as a normal cat and there are all sorts of adverse gastrointestinal sequalae that result from excessive ingestion of hair. We have to change the breed standards. Now. Not next year.'

We can only agree with him. As cat lovers all of us should speak out about these extremes. They are not acceptable and moderating them slightly is not the answer. It is not the breed or the line which is important – it is the cat inside.

Glossary
Brachycephalic – having a head disproportionately short
Nasolacrimal – belonging to the nose and lacrimal apparatus (tear producing)
Exposure keratitis – inflammation of the cornea (the protective outer layer of the eye) because the cornea cannot be covered by the lids. The surface dries and cracks leaving the way open for bacteria to enter.
Corneal sequestra
Stenotic nares – constriction of the nostrils
Stridulous breathing – noisy breathing associated with partial obstruction of the larynx or trachea
Sleep apnoea – Cessation of breathing, unable to draw breath when asleep
Syringomyelia – spinal abnormality resulting in obstruction of flow of cerebrospinal fluid
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Old 06-29-2010, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Ultra flat faced persians Life is Torture..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sashy View Post
A little bit of flat face is fine, but breeders will overbreed to emphasize 'desirable' traits. Are they desirable? I don't think so.
I believe most ppl found them precious maybe because they're rare, and perhaps expensive, so not everyone can own them. But honestly, don't they look like they just langgar dinding? no offence la, and it's alright if that's how they look naturally(God makes no mistake, so all His creations are beautiful), but to think that ppl purposely breed to emphasize on the squashed look
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