Breeding to become rich will NOT make you rich

[Nana]

I don't know if this has been discussed. I don't mean to offend anyone, but just need to get it outta me. And I'm not referring to breeders in general .

I don’t know if you all agree with me on this, but I think its worth to discuss.
I quote from someone on breeding cats “boleh buat duit ooohhh”
Hmmm….Goodness…open up your mind and THINK for once would you.
My late great grandmother used to say....

1. When a cat gets to eat good food, “thank God for such good food, hope my owner grows rich so I can keep eating tasty food”
2. When a cat is loved, “thank God I’m loved, I hope my owner is always in good health, so she can keep loving me”

And thus you live well, due to good prayers from your cat. 2 cats? Double the prayers. 3, 4, 10…? Well, you can calculate.

But when you breed your cat for the sake of money making, how rich can you possibly get?

1. Good food is not cheap. You’re gonna spend so much money on it, that by the time you wanna sell off the cat, the price of the cat won’t be able to cover the a/m of money you spent on the quality good food you gave her.
2. If you give cheap food, the cat is gonna curse on you, thus pray you don’t get rich. And when the new owner finds the cat is not up to its optimum health, more curse on you. (cursed for a total of 40 times, it is so gonna come true!)
3. The time and effort spent for you caring for a cat, could’ve been spent to do other work that is really money making, thus you waste time there (that is with regards to money making). Simply saying, caring for a cat takes time and effort.
4. Litter? Vaccination and vet visit? Shampoo? How much would that total up to?
5. And when you don’t love a cat enough, don’t play with her, the cat’s not happy, how healthy can she be? Thus how healthy can the baby kittens be?
6. Then finally when you put a price on a cat…How much can you possibly get back in return to cover the money spent?
   

Basically I have no scientific research backing up what I said, but that’s just logically speaking. I know there are many responsible pedigree breeders out there, and there are also non-pedigree breeders who sell for the sake of sharing (for those who can’t afford pedigree), love, interest etc. But I’m specifically referring to those who breed and sell to get rich. On top of that no love and attachment at all.

I recently went to a pet shop. A ‘persian’ kitten for about RM1200,whoaaa…. And the ‘persian’ looked like it was dying , placed in a small cage with no litter box…and got poo on the side also… I also got to see the cats used for breeding…hot, smelly, not enough ventilation and they were confined in a cage in pairs, the cats were big, and the size of the cage?? I’ve a cage slightly bigger than that, and my Bintang alone refuse to stay in, she would tip everything upside down… So can you imagine 1 pair of big cats, confined in such way?? Play, love, relationship??? I don’t think so…

And another incident, I got to know of someone saying the cat is ugly, but because it’s tricolor, she’ll be good for breeding…. If you’ve fallen in love with the cat, ‘ugly’ is no longer in the dictionary…. No need to fall in love, if you have a heart, ‘ugly’ would be too harsh a word for such lovable creatures….

I’m so sorry if anyone is offended, but I’m disturbed with this idea. I do understand those who breed to see the baby kittens to love, but to make money and eventually get rich?? At least give some love n care…

Just something to ponder upon.

[lynielime]

i hate irresponsible breeders!! i think people who breed animals to make money are pathetic!! get a real job!! stop prostituting animals!!

[aliciahorsley]

i like the way you present your argument. very heartfelt and sincere.

a little bit about this bit though
and there are also non-pedigree breeders who sell for the sake of sharing (for those who can’t afford pedigree), love, interest etc

my problem with these people, however is that because they breed to "share", becuase ppl cannot afford pedigrees, they usually sell unneutered animals. this in turn almost alwsy leads to more breeding which will more than likely lead to unwanted animals.

even some pedegree breeders are guilty of this!

so, always always buy a neutered cat from a responsible breeder. then you know
1. you are not supporting a breeder who may contribute to the problem of homeless animals.
2. you won't accidently contribute to the problem of homeless animals.
3. you won't give/sell a kitten to someone who could contribute to the problem of homeles animals

also, a responsible breeder will first and foremost be wanting a good loving home for his kittens and cats. this means that money is secondary to the issue. i know of breeders who have taken installments in order for thier kitten to go to the right home, rather than sell it fore more money to someone who doesn't seem right. My sister Olivia has :) there are others too.

and lastly, if you want a pedigree cat but feel they are too expensive, even with the installment plan, you need to become friends with pedigree breeders, becuase they have retired showcats that they will want to place in pet homes. and these lucky cats will almost always be given to a worthy family for a small adoption fee.

so you see, NANA, you are right!
breeding cannot make you rich

[vivienlpl]

that is why...... exploiting.....
some people buy not for as pet but to breed and make money

the other day i was in this pet shop..
there was this boy coming in and enquire
i want to sell puppies

pet shop owner asked him what breed
he said golden retriever - 5 puppies
he wants to sell all
and he was curious asking how much the price
the petshop said cannot tell because they need to check the pup first

i hate that kind of mindset to be frank

and i remember seeing on of a thread in here about an owner claiming his dog stupid because his dog not interested when he wants his dog to do..
what kind of mentality that owner has there....

[June]

I will never buy cats from license or BYB breeder.I'm trying to do my part on no demand no supply.Fullstop.

[Nana]

It's just so sad . They should stop doing that. Pity the cat for having to go through that kind of life...and shall we pity the human for not getting richer as well?? despite of all the 'effort'.....

It's so hard to get through them... I tried my very best to say at least a bit, and what I got back was..."It's a sin to neuter ur cat"....

Of course there are a lot of view to this... but what i'm trying to bring up is AT LEAST care, really care for the cat... you're already 'using' the cat...the least you can do is love and really care for it.... and what gets me even more they are so called 'animal lover' for HAVING cats, infact for having so many cats....some cat lover you are .

[blackie007]

Lynie, you summed it up in those words (bold in blue)!

i have met someone who does exactly that. i don't know her personally, but i have seen some of her kittens, which happened to be sick, and when i asked a mutual friend why she mixes the pure pedigree breeds and turn them into non-pedigrees, instead of selectively breeding for the betterment of a particular breed, i was told that this woman feels that if the cats aren't producing kittens for her, then it's a waste of her money to feed them!!

Originally Posted by lynielime

i hate irresponsible breeders!! i think people who breed animals to make money are pathetic!! get a real job!! stop prostituting animals!!

Alicia,
I am in total agreement with what you said below (bold in blue). at the end of the day, no matter what they say, they are contributing to strays.

my other problem with those people is that they are actually doing it for money, and yet pretend that they are being kind and want to sell cheap DLH to share the lovely kittens with those who can't afford pedigrees.

and for those pet shops that buy and sell those cheap non-pedigrees, they are actually nothing more than a backyard breeder's trading centre......for those pet shops are in actual fact supporting those backyard breeders.

Originally Posted by aliciahorsley

i like the way you present your argument. very heartfelt and sincere.

a little bit about this bit though
and there are also non-pedigree breeders who sell for the sake of sharing (for those who can’t afford pedigree), love, interest etc

my problem with these people, however is that because they breed to "share", becuase ppl cannot afford pedigrees, they usually sell unneutered animals. this in turn almost alwsy leads to more breeding which will more than likely lead to unwanted animals.

even some pedegree breeders are guilty of this!

so, always always buy a neutered cat from a responsible breeder. then you know
1. you are not supporting a breeder who may contribute to the problem of homeless animals.
2. you won't accidently contribute to the problem of homeless animals.
3. you won't give/sell a kitten to someone who could contribute to the problem of homeles animals

also, a responsible breeder will first and foremost be wanting a good loving home for his kittens and cats. this means that money is secondary to the issue. i know of breeders who have taken installments in order for thier kitten to go to the right home, rather than sell it fore more money to someone who doesn't seem right. My sister Olivia has :) there are others too.

and lastly, if you want a pedigree cat but feel they are too expensive, even with the installment plan, you need to become friends with pedigree breeders, becuase they have retired showcats that they will want to place in pet homes. and these lucky cats will almost always be given to a worthy family for a small adoption fee.

so you see, NANA, you are right!
breeding cannot make you rich

[vivienlpl]

Originally Posted by Nana

It's just so sad . They should stop doing that. Pity the cat for having to go through that kind of life...and shall we pity the human for not getting richer as well?? despite of all the 'effort'.....

It's so hard to get through them... I tried my very best to say at least a bit, and what I got back was..."It's a sin to neuter ur cat"....

Of course there are a lot of view to this... but what i'm trying to bring up is AT LEAST care, really care for the cat... you're already 'using' the cat...the least you can do is love and really care for it.... and what gets me even more they are so called 'animal lover' for HAVING cats, infact for having so many cats....some cat lover you are .

that why most pure breed are cat napped.... for 1 reason - not sell but to breed

demand for this will stop if ppl dont buy..
yes it is really torturing you know ...... worst part is when the animal dont perform.. or you cannot force them... they torture them... it happens in reality

[Nana]

I'm not exactly sure of what it means by backyard breeder...I can only assume, it's something not nice...

I wonder how the system is in the US? anyone knows? I wouldn't know exactly but, I remember that you'd have to register (have somekind of license) in order to own a cat. Each cat must be registered, and therefore must have been vaccinated...I wouldn't know whether the cat must've been neutered or not...but judging from the way it was, I would assume that the cats must've been neutered...

That way, we can keep tract of cat owners, and even if the cats reach irresponsible hands, at least they won't be able to breed.. But of course, no strays were seen around.. And with this license thing, you have something in your hand to prove that this cat is yours.. Therefore, you can only have so many number of cats, such as licensed to you... It is a lot of procedures, but I think it helps in controlling this money-making cat 'lovers'

I wouldn't know, but are we anywhere towards such a system?

[eclipse]

I really have to say this. I see thousands of irresponsible breeders around especially in Msia's famous forum LYN. IN their garage sales section, most if not ALL of the breeders are despicable. I once enquired for a dobby, he replied that he has a 2yrs old dobby and a 4months, i can choose which one i want. I just asked if she has given birth before, I guess ull know the answer. They can sell the dog after using them to make money from the puppies. I wonder if they do the same for their wives?

[Nana]

Originally Posted by eclipse

I really have to say this. I see thousands of irresponsible breeders around especially in Msia's famous forum LYN. IN their garage sales section, most if not ALL of the breeders are despicable. I once enquired for a dobby, he replied that he has a 2yrs old dobby and a 4months, i can choose which one i want. I just asked if she has given birth before, I guess ull know the answer. They can sell the dog after using them to make money from the puppies. I wonder if they do the same for their wives?

hi eclipse, I haven't come across u before .

I know, it's so so sad.... As much as I don't wanna support such business...but I'm so tempted to buy, the intention is not to create demand for this animals....but it's like when I look and fall in love with the kitty, i sooo wanna save it from that kind of life. I thought maybe stray cats are happier than these breeding machines, at least they get some freedom and control over themselves although not luxuriously a life.

I dunno whether i should be glad or not that I can't afford to buy, but if I could afford, I'd go bankrupt, buying these cats bcoz i'm sure there are many, many, many, many of them out there... and they don't go off for cheap prices..

[Simon]

Unfortunately this kind of thing is happening all over the world, money seems to always bring out the worst in some. In the UK, breeders are licensed and regulated, but there are still many rogue traders who operate not only outside of the law, within the UK, but also outside of the country, the RSPCA currently have an awareness campaign on irresponsible puppy breeders and puppy trafficking, see here,

http://tinyurl.com/dedhtj

There is also a recent "rogue trader" documentary here,

http://tinyurl.com/dxe3fs

The key advice seems to be never buy a puppy without seeing it with its mother and always see the puppy in the place it was bred...

Personally, I don't agree with breeding and certainly not the eugenics based breeding policies that most kennel clubs implicitly endorse...

[Maneki Neko]

Originally Posted by Simon

Personally, I don't agree with breeding and certainly not the eugenics based breeding policies that most kennel clubs implicitly endorse...

Hi, Simon,

Your last comment is dead on. Even when we talk about "responsible" and "knowledgeable" breeders, many of them are also playing god to bad effect. Most English Bulldogs (and some other Mastiff-type breeds) have to be delivered by caesarian section because the mothers can't deliver them normally. Why? People have come to fancy these breeds with big heads, so breeders over generations have developed this trait.

[blackie007]

Maneki,
I don't call these type of breeders "responsible" or "knowledgeable". If they are knowledgeable, they would know that the mothers will have a tough time delivering the puppies. and if they are responsible, they would not subject the mothers to such torture.

I have a word for those type of breeders, thoughtless.

The definition of responsible & knowledgeable breeding is not to breed because it is a fancied breed, but because it is a good breed, of a good temperament. They will not breed an animal that does not have 100% of all the desirable temperaments, no matter how high the demand for it is.

Originally Posted by Maneki Neko

Hi, Simon,

Your last comment is dead on. Even when we talk about "responsible" and "knowledgeable" breeders, many of them are also playing god to bad effect. Most English Bulldogs (and some other Mastiff-type breeds) have to be delivered by caesarian section because the mothers can't deliver them normally. Why? People have come to fancy these breeds with big heads, so breeders over generations have developed this trait.

[lynielime]

Article taken from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30073798/

Missouri fights reputation as 'puppy mill'
State pledges to do more to crack down on bad dog breeders


SENECA, Mo. - When authorities raided J.B.'s Precious Puppies, they discovered more than 200 dogs standing in their own excrement, crammed three and four to a cage. Some were so sickly they were missing clumps of hair. The skeletal remains of puppies and adult dogs were found inside pet-food bags.
The ghastly scene deep in the Ozarks has become far too common in Missouri.

Missouri is the "puppy mill" capital of America, home to more than 4,000 shoddy and inhumane dog-breeding businesses, by one estimate. But now the state is trying to shed its reputation, with the chief of the Agriculture Department pledging to do more to crack down on bad breeders.

"Missouri led the nation in licensing breeders. Let's lead the nation in putting unlicensed breeders out of business," Agriculture Director Jon Hagler said.

Missouri has been No. 1 in puppy mills for decades, with fly-by-night breeders — both licensed and unlicensed — selling pups churned out by dogs that spend their entire lives in cages. The pets are sold through classified ads, in pet stores and over the Internet.
The problem is so severe that Missouri's reputable breeders complain that the shady ones are making them all look bad.

Appalling finds
Animal advocates say puppy mills flourish here for a number of reasons, among them: uneven enforcement of the rules, and remote, rural landscapes that allow poor or illegal practices to escape detection. The hills and hollows of the Ozarks have the state's highest concentration of puppy breeders.

"It's embarrassing," said Julie Leicht, executive director of the Missouri Alliance for Animal Legislation. "We're the meth capital. And we're the leader in puppy mills. Welcome to Missouri."

The stories are heartbreaking. In February, a raid in Missouri's Pleasant Hope netted 93 Yorkshire terriers, their hair severely matted and covered in feces. Last September, 171 anemic, flea-infested cocker spaniels, some of them blind, were taken from a breeder. Fifteen days later, 67 emaciated, mangy dogs and puppies were rescued.
"Most people think puppies were born in a box next to a fireplace in somebody's living room," Kim Townsend, an activist who monitors the industry. "If they walked into these places, they'd be appalled."

Since taking office in January, the agriculture chief has been working to better enforce a 1992 program for protecting animals cared for by breeders.

He has named a new program coordinator, asked for a re-examination of old cases, ordered a review of internal procedures, and stepped up inspections and the issuing of citations to violators. His new Operation Bark Alert allows people to report unlicensed breeders directly to him by e-mail.

But Hagler said his agency simply does not have the means to conduct inspections every year as required by law. "We cannot regulate 3,200 licensed breeders plus every animal rescue, shelter and dog pound, and go after unlicensed breeders with 11 total inspectors."

Lax regulations
The Humane Society of the United States' "Stop Puppy Mills" campaign says Missouri should stop licensing breeders until it has enough inspectors. State audits in 2001, 2004 and 2008 sharply criticized Missouri's regulation of puppy breeders as ineffective and lax, citing management conflicts of interest, spotty inspections, few sanctions and failure to track repeat offenders.

State authorities can shut down breeders, revoke their licenses, fine them and ask local prosecutors to bring criminal charges of abuse or neglect. But Tim Rickey of the Humane Society of Missouri said the Agriculture Department rarely pursues charges.

Inspection reports show that the state instead encourages violators to reduce the number of dogs to a more manageable level or below the threshold of regulation.

Townsend, who maintains a Web site with inspection reports on Missouri puppy breeders, said many puppy mills are repeat offenders: "You take away their license, and they go out and get more animals."

Jewel Bond, owner of J.B.'s Precious Puppies, failed to meet state standards in 2007 after temporarily losing her federal license. She agreed to get out of the business and let the state sell her dogs at auction, from which she received the proceeds, minus a $1,000 fine. But a year later, Bond was back in business. Townsend said Bond repurchased some of her dogs at auction.

After the raid in February, Bond, 66, was charged with two counts of animal abuse, each punishable by up to a year in jail and a $1,000 fine.

Bond's telephone has been disconnected, and she did not answer the door on a recent visit to her Seneca kennel, situated behind a tall fence and no-trespassing signs.

"All she cared about was strictly the money. You can't convince me she or anybody cared about the welfare of these animals," said Sheriff Ken Copeland, who orchestrated the raid.

Marilyn Shepherd, a breeder in rural Ava in the Ozarks, has been the subject of three federal licensing complaints but still maintains a state license. She would not allow her dog pens to be toured or photographed, saying pictures of caged dogs would set off protests by "whiney-ass animal rights activists."
Rickey, of the Humane Society of Missouri, said he is encouraged by what the new agriculture director is doing.

"Their focus seems to have changed," Rickey said. "They are working harder to shut unlicensed facilities down. They are seeking prosecutions. This is all new and unproven."

[Simon]

Hi Maneki and Blackie007,

I think you are both right, but for different reasons, breeds and breeders are heavily influenced by show animals, especially show dogs, and the public are heavily influenced in turn, particularly by very high profile dog shows such as Crufts.

Unfortunately, kennel clubs have become the custodians of what defines a breed, their definitions are mostly arbitrary catering to Victorian fashion whims. Kennel clubs have a "breed type" defined for every recognised breed. A good example is the bullmastiff, as Maneki mentioned, you can read the breed definition here,

http://tinyurl.com/dcrhnd

Note how the head for this type is defined as "skull large and square" which is the root cause of the problem. Any bullmastiff not having a large square head does not conform to breed type, worse still, the breed definition is open to interpretation, i.e. implicitly, the larger the head the better. And in competition, the larger headed show dog would win, all other characteristics being equal. If you go through the kennel clubs breed type descriptions there are many more examples, the German Shepard Dog is another good one.

Note also how kennel clubs are against neutering male dogs, at the bottom of all breed types they state "Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum." Why must they?

So, breeders are faced with a dilemma, breed dogs that do not conform to breed type, as defined by the kennel clubs, or do so.

A bred dog is considered faulty, for cosmetic reasons alone, if it does not exactly conform to breed type,

"Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog."

While there is a difference between breeding for show and breeding for pet, show breeding creates a public perception for a breed, which no doubt pressures most breeders into conforming to type.

Personally, I think the kennel clubs are responsible for much of the woes of bred or should I say "in bred" dogs (yes breeders mate mothers and sons, grandfathers with granddaughters and so on, something we humans would not even think about doing ourselves, and with good reason). On the surface, kennel clubs are caring and responsible, promoting a code of ethics and promoting breeding dogs that are "fit for function" which are all good and positive things, and I know they also do many good things for dog welfare, but between these lines they are also supporting and promoting eugenics and ethically questionable breeding and breeding practices.

[Maneki Neko]

Blackie,

Just to clarify, I don't consider these breeding practices ethical, either -- that's why I put the quotation marks around "knowledgeable" and "responsible".

They, however, do consider themselves to be knowledgeably and responsibly improving the breed according to the standards established by this or that kennel club, as Simon mentioned. And these breeders are amply rewarded in the show-ring for producing dogs with traits that most humane people would consider disadvantageous. The vast majority of them would defend to the death their passionate love for their breed or breeds of choice and will insist to the end that they are working for the breed's betterment.

In the US, at least, the Border Collie breeders have refused to register the breed with the American Kennel Club for exactly this reason. They value the BC as a brilliant working and herding dog. They don't care what the dog looks like, whether it can prance flashily through a dog show ring -- they want a dog that can herd sheep, and that independent intelligence and soundness is what they breed for.

It's a tough subject. The kennel clubs do foster knowledge of breeds and genetics, but when they define breed standards, are their hearts always in the right places? Doesn't seem so to me.

[vivi]

Hmmm...can mongrel register the breed with the AKC, and then mongrel will be pure breed for dogs?


come on just a bright side suggestion.
No hard feeling ya.

[blackie007]

Maneki,
sorry if i misunderstood you. i am not too knowledgeable about dogs, and their breeders' practises.

based on what you & simon have clarified, it appears that the kennel clubs are not very humane......sorry, no offense meant to anyone, but i feel very strongly about all this nonsense of having a large head just to meet the breed standard, when if things are left to nature, the head won't be so large as to cause birthing problems to the mothers.